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Kepler_452b

ZCASH - Genuinely Anonymous Altcoin

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I'm just starting to look into Zcash. It will be released on Oct 28. Its available in beta right now for testing. It sounds potentially amazing: a completely anonymous alternative to bitcoin (bitcoin is great but isn't anonymous).

 

Maybe some others here have been following it and can share their thoughts about it....? I'd love to hear from some of the seriously tech-savy geeks and/or staff that hang here

 

Anyone looked at Genesis mining....they're selling mining hash power on their servers in Iceland....Zcash will be available initially only by mining, but its not clear what the ROI might actually be....thoughts ???

 

One of the intents of the creators of Zcash was to make asic mining difficult so it would not be dominated by wealthy folks with enough money to have a custom asic built, but would also be equally accessible to the average user. I like that attitude.

 

 

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It's actually in the post.

3512 "Bitcoin fix alternatives" wasn't a good example?

 

The situation is actually simple. It's not me (us) who has to prove that the altcoin is worthless,

it's the developer(s) that have to prove otherwise. 3500 failed. I just call it statistics.

 

If you think Bitcoin is not anonymous, then you don't know how to use it's ecosystem.

No altcoin that aims to "fix" this barely existing "problem", will success. As we seen with

some other trash called Darkcoin that was rebranded to Dash or something, and has less

users than Windows 95.


Occasional moderator, sometimes BOFH. Opinions are my own, except when my wife disagrees.

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A lot of people died trying to fly before Kitty Hawk. Till then the statistics looked pretty grim. Now a few hours comfortable safe trip between continents on a chair in the sky with food, drinks and entertainment is taken for granted (imho cynicism is usually proved wrong in the end).

 

But what I'm hoping to do with this post is:

 

1) inform anyone interested about some new technology that may prove very beneficial to the community of people that care about privacy and anonymity, and

 

2) share any actually useful information/knowledge (pro or con) between people that have it.

 

There are a lot of very bright blockchain and encryption experts behind Zcash (from Johns Hopkins University, UC Berkely, MIT, Tel Aviv University, Technion...ref: https://z.cash/team.html). It looks promising and we should be hoping it works well.

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Board advisors != Developers/Owners/Endorsers. Never mix those facts.

Any PhD student had a very prominent advisor but it doesn't mean the idea is successful.

 

Whether it is scientifically better than Bitcoin in terms of Math and crypto? Very possible.

But will it be adopted even in the top 10 list, which is all that matters? Highly doubtful if ever.

Which is all what matters in the world of currency - cash, gold, or diamonds.

If your currency can be only used and exchanged by a limited number of people, it is not an

alternative to anything. Actually Bitcoin suffers from the same problem, but it gains popularity

each day. For 99.9% of people, Zcash does not solve any problem with currency nor with anonymity,

since you will still have to trade it to Bitcoin one way or another.

Luckily there are many merchants accepting 50+ altcoins right now and convert them directly into

cash/BTC. Otherwise even they will not stand a single chance, look at the 2013-2014 altcoin boom.

 

Nothing against them, but there are some social facts that has to be solved first - not with crypto.


Occasional moderator, sometimes BOFH. Opinions are my own, except when my wife disagrees.

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I think you've made some points. Let me respond to a few:

-------------------------------------------------------
"But will it be adopted even in the top 10 list, which is all that matters? Highly doubtful if ever."

Where do you buy your divining rods? If it turns out to be as good as hoped, it will be adopted widely because people do or should want (if they have a brain) the anonymity which cash has and bitcoin doesn't. By way of analogy, internal combustion automobiles had low adoption initially because they were too hard and inconvenient to crank start. Then someone invented the electric starter. Now (for better or worse) we live in a sea of automobiles.

---------------------------------------------------------
"For 99.9% of people, Zcash does not solve any problem with currency nor with anonymity,"

Actually at the moment it doesn't solve problems for %100.0 percent of people because it isn't released yet. But if it works as expected, it will solve the problem of anonymity (closely related to fungibility). Allow me to inform you on the following point. Yes, other than mining your own Zcash, you will have to exchange non-anonymous (trackable) altcoins for Zcash. But after the exchange, any further transactions in Zcash will be completely anonymous; they become invisible to scrutiny, government or otherwise.

-----------------------------------------------------------
"look at the 2013-2014 altcoin boom"

I think the 50+ altcoins you mention don't have a chance because they don't offer enough advantage over bitcoin. I agree with your general point that adoption will be a critical issue (assuming no unfixable technical bugs materialize). What the adoption curve will look like is impossible to predict. There aren't expected to be any Zcash exchanges available for the first few months until sufficient Zcash coins (Zeks) are mined. At that point we should start to see exchangeability. I can imagine that governments, people with vested financial interest in bitcoin, and people with Ludite loyalty to the familiar, might try to impede adoption of a truly anonymous, superior digital currency. But people who are smart enough to understand the advantages of genuine anonymity should be encouraging the adoption of Zcash.

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We would be happy when it does more than a website and a white paper, although chances are 3500:1 so far.

You can't compare it to a new technological breakthrough, the analogy is wrong.

Kind of reminds me new Linux distributions that aim to fix "everything" that is wrong in the current way of it.

I will actually give 1 BTC to any person in this thread if this coin goes to top 10 in a year from now, that is how

confident I am about the current situation.


Occasional moderator, sometimes BOFH. Opinions are my own, except when my wife disagrees.

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We would be happy when it does more than a website and a white paper, although chances are 3500:1 so far.

You can't compare it to a new technological breakthrough, the analogy is wrong.

Kind of reminds me new Linux distributions that aim to fix "everything" that is wrong in the current way of it.

I will actually give 1 BTC to any person in this thread if this coin goes to top 10 in a year from now, that is how

confident I am about the current situation.

Its already done more than "a website and a whitepaper", its available to anyone now to beta test. You seem to be instantly negative toward ZEC without knowing too much about it. Odd. Perhaps you're in one of the groups I mentioned above. Also, just curious, who is the "we" above?

 

I accept your kind offer of 1 BTC a year from now .

 

For anyone's interest: the smallest unit of ZEC has been called a "zatoshi"

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How is this more anonymous than bitcoin? Bitcoins problem in my opinion is the troubles of acquiring them, and to acquire them you need to find an exchange and possibly hand over credit card info so they can charge you and give you bitcoin, or in the event of coinbase for example you need to provide ID to be able to use them as exchange to get bitcoin, which destroys any shred of anonymity.

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Responding to "If you think Bitcoin is not anonymous, then you don't know how to use it's ecosystem."

 

Bitcoin is not anonymous. In order to get a moderate degree of pseudonymity with bitcoin, you have to, at a minimum, go to a lot of trouble to buy bitcoin anonymously, and then use it carefully.

 

Here's a compilation page of various sources explaining how and why bitcoin is not anonymous:

http://www.bitcoinisnotanonymous.com/

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Please let us know when it lands in this junkyard:

https://www.cryptocoincharts.info/coins/info/1001

 

I knew that cryptocurrencies can be made by everyone, but this list is overwhelmingly gigantic. Never thought we've got more than 3000 currencies today. It's contributing to what I think about digital currency: It's a good idea but the internet effectively destroyed all of its good values.

 

Mr. kepler_452b, I also think zCash will not stand a chance. If anyone thinks it can be done, it's merely belief and hope. Even if your statement that Bitcoin is not anonymous is right, there are a dozen of alternatives also focusing on privacy and anonymity, also not as popular and widespread as Bitcoin. The website you linked lists Monero, Dash and Bytecoin. Guess what, I didn't hear of any of them until now.

 

I don't trust in any digital currency. You too should not.


Four simple things:
There's a guide to AirVPN. Before you ask questions, take 30 minutes of your time to go through it.

Amazon IPs are not dangerous here. It's the fallback DNS.
Running TOR exits is discouraged. They're subject to restrictions on the internet and harm all AirVPN users.

Furthermore, I propose that your paranoia is to be destroyed. If you overdo privacy, you'll be unique among the mass again.

 

XMPP: gigan3rd@xmpp.airvpn.org or join our lounge@conference.xmpp.airvpn.org

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Please let us know when it lands in this junkyard:

https://www.cryptocoincharts.info/coins/info/1001

 

I knew that cryptocurrencies can be made by everyone, but this list is overwhelmingly gigantic. Never thought we've got more than 3000 currencies today. It's contributing to what I think about digital currency: It's a good idea but the internet effectively destroyed all of its good values.

 

Mr. kepler_452b, I also think zCash will not stand a chance. If anyone thinks it can be done, it's merely belief and hope. Even if your statement that Bitcoin is not anonymous is right, there are a dozen of alternatives also focusing on privacy and anonymity, also not as popular and widespread as Bitcoin. The website you linked lists Monero, Dash and Bytecoin. Guess what, I didn't hear of any of them until now.

 

I don't trust in any digital currency. You too should not.

 

 

Mr. Giganerd, please don't try to be the arbitrator of what I or other people should believe in. If you haven't heard of the above altcoins, then you're not paying attention to the market which is not surprising since you don't trust any digital currency. But that's your trust issue.

 

Millions of people do trust in and use digital currencies daily. AirVPN obviously trusts bitcoin as they accept it as payment. More than 100,000 businesses accept bitcoin. Bitcoin is readily available at atms in most major countries, and by other means worldwide. The current total value of bitcoins in circulation is around 10 billion dollars with over 200,000 bitcoin transactions per day. Big banks and governments are looking at how to integrate bitcoin into their financial systems. In the last year the value of 1 bitcoin has approximately tripled to over $630. Digital currency is not only booming, it is here to stay. I don't mean to be unkind, but to be bluntly honest, you clearly don't don't know about digital currencies which renders your opinions above without merit.

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How is this more anonymous than bitcoin? Bitcoins problem in my opinion is the troubles of acquiring them, and to acquire them you need to find an exchange and possibly hand over credit card info so they can charge you and give you bitcoin, or in the event of coinbase for example you need to provide ID to be able to use them as exchange to get bitcoin, which destroys any shred of anonymity.

 

You are quite right, one of the problems of trying to use bitcoin anonymously is the difficulty of obtaining them anonymously. It can be done, but its time consuming and inconvenient. Do some research and check out LocalBitCoins.com for sellers providing bitcoin in potentially anonymous ways. Once you've gotten some anonymously you have to be careful not to reveal any personal information in a bitcoin transaction. And frankly there are many other ways bitcoin users can be de-anonymized by sophisticated adversaries essentially because every bitcoin transaction is recorded in detail in the distributed blockchain that is the heart of bitcoin technology.

 

Now to answer your question, Zcash is better because, unlike bitcoin, it encrypts the details of a transaction such that those details are only available to the participants in the transaction. The actual algorithms that make this work are esoteric and may cause brain damage to non-PHDs (ok just kidding). Search Zcash and you'll find many explanations of the details....you'll find one that suits your level of interest. The bottom line is that Zcash maintains a very high level of anonymity without the above mentioned time consuming and often ineffective inconveniences that have kept bitcoin from becoming even more broadly adopted.

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How is this more anonymous than bitcoin? Bitcoins problem in my opinion is the troubles of acquiring them, and to acquire them you need to find an exchange and possibly hand over credit card info so they can charge you and give you bitcoin, or in the event of coinbase for example you need to provide ID to be able to use them as exchange to get bitcoin, which destroys any shred of anonymity.

 

You are quite right, one of the problems of trying to use bitcoin anonymously is the difficulty of obtaining them anonymously. It can be done, but its time consuming and inconvenient. Do some research and check out LocalBitCoins.com for sellers providing bitcoin in potentially anonymous ways. Once you've gotten some anonymously you have to be careful not to reveal any personal information in a bitcoin transaction. And frankly there are many other ways bitcoin users can be de-anonymized by sophisticated adversaries essentially because every bitcoin transaction is recorded in detail in the distributed blockchain that is the heart of bitcoin technology.

 

Now to answer your question, Zcash is better because, unlike bitcoin, it encrypts the details of a transaction such that those details are only available to the participants in the transaction. The actual algorithms that make this work are esoteric and may cause brain damage to non-PHDs (ok just kidding). Search Zcash and you'll find many explanations of the details....you'll find one that suits your level of interest. The bottom line is that Zcash maintains a very high level of anonymity without the above mentioned time consuming and often ineffective inconveniences that have kept bitcoin from becoming even more broadly adopted.

 

But how will Zcash fix the problems of acquiring?

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How is this more anonymous than bitcoin? Bitcoins problem in my opinion is the troubles of acquiring them, and to acquire them you need to find an exchange and possibly hand over credit card info so they can charge you and give you bitcoin, or in the event of coinbase for example you need to provide ID to be able to use them as exchange to get bitcoin, which destroys any shred of anonymity.

 

You are quite right, one of the problems of trying to use bitcoin anonymously is the difficulty of obtaining them anonymously. It can be done, but its time consuming and inconvenient. Do some research and check out LocalBitCoins.com for sellers providing bitcoin in potentially anonymous ways. Once you've gotten some anonymously you have to be careful not to reveal any personal information in a bitcoin transaction. And frankly there are many other ways bitcoin users can be de-anonymized by sophisticated adversaries essentially because every bitcoin transaction is recorded in detail in the distributed blockchain that is the heart of bitcoin technology.

 

Now to answer your question, Zcash is better because, unlike bitcoin, it encrypts the details of a transaction such that those details are only available to the participants in the transaction. The actual algorithms that make this work are esoteric and may cause brain damage to non-PHDs (ok just kidding). Search Zcash and you'll find many explanations of the details....you'll find one that suits your level of interest. The bottom line is that Zcash maintains a very high level of anonymity without the above mentioned time consuming and often ineffective inconveniences that have kept bitcoin from becoming even more broadly adopted.

 

But how will Zcash fix the problems of acquiring?

 

 

With Zcash the problem of acquiring coin anonymously no longer exists because the buyer's future transactions with Zcash are anonymous. A user currently needs to acquire bitcoins anonymously so there is no connection between her and her future transactions with that bitcoin which are publicly visible in the blockchain. Let's say she buys one Zec (Zcash coin) using a credit card online. There will be a record at the cc company of the purchase from the Zec seller. But (unlike bitcoin) none of her future transactions with that Zec will be visible to anyone but her and her transaction partners. Even if at some point she makes a purchase which includes personally identifying information (address, for example). Only that transaction would become visible with, for example, the seizure of the seller's pc. Other purchases she makes from other sellers would remain anonymous. No doubt there will also be ways to buy Zec anonymously if someone needs to avoid even a record of the Zec purchase (Chinese dissident for example). So purchasing with Zcash will become as easy as purchasing with a credit card online, but anonymous.

 

BTW the user has the option of making any transaction visible (proof of charitable donation for example).

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I think we're on the same page, cm0s. Bitcoin was never designed to be anonymous, thus all bitcoin transactions are publicly recorded and visible in the blockchain. Zcash however is designed to provide completely anonymous (but still verifiable) transactions. With Zcash, all transactions are encrypted in the blockchain record and are only visible to the two parties to the transaction with their view keys. It's a scientific breakthrough to be able to have a transaction verifiable by a third party without that verifier being able to see the details of the transaction (ie the verifier can't see the amounts or the sender/receiver identifiers). This is done with a very clever zero knowledge proof called a "zk-SNARK".

 

There's a simple to understand infographic explanation here:

https://forum.z.cash/t/zcash-explained-in-an-infographic/2074

 

The zcash forum is the domain part of that url.  You can find lots of more detailed information and discussion on the forum.

 

Cheers.

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PS: just thought I'd add that of course no transaction will be private or anonymous if you're conducting it over an open channel like unencrypted email or website. This should be obvious to everyone, but I just wanted to reinforce the point for anyone that doesn't already understand it. So use your VPN, GPG, Protonmail (or others), https and any other means of remaining private and anonymous.

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Mr. Giganerd, please don't try to be the arbitrator of what I or other people should believe in.

 

I contribute to the discussion. If you strongly disagree with one's opinion and point of view, do not attack them directly. Otherwise one'd think you are affiliated with what you advertise..

 

I don't mean to be unkind, but to be bluntly honest, you clearly don't don't know about digital currencies which renders your opinions above without merit.

 

Maybe I didn't dive deeper into cryptocurrencies, maybe I did. How come you think I don't have the slightest clue when I write "I don't trust them"? Did you assume I didn't read about it? That I didn't see what people around me are doing with it? How on earth does it qualify you to say "HAH FUCK YOUR SO CALLED OPINION 'CUS YOU DON'T HAVE ONE"? It's just extremely rude of you.

Next time, consider all the options. Not just the one fitting your beliefs.


Four simple things:
There's a guide to AirVPN. Before you ask questions, take 30 minutes of your time to go through it.

Amazon IPs are not dangerous here. It's the fallback DNS.
Running TOR exits is discouraged. They're subject to restrictions on the internet and harm all AirVPN users.

Furthermore, I propose that your paranoia is to be destroyed. If you overdo privacy, you'll be unique among the mass again.

 

XMPP: gigan3rd@xmpp.airvpn.org or join our lounge@conference.xmpp.airvpn.org

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Mr. Giganerd,  

First, I'm not advertising anything.

Second, I'm not affiliated with Zcash in any way. I simply recognize that it's a clever way forward to provide what the digital world needs, a digital currency that has the same anonymity and fungibility as cash.

Third, I'm sorry if I bruised your feelings.

Fourth, I wasn't attacking you personally, I was refuting your opinions which were offered without any supporting evidence. Monero and Dash, which you deemed untrustworthy because you've never heard of them, are the #6 and #7 most popular digital currencies of three thousand you refereed to.

Fifth, I started this thread to share information about Zcash. If you or your friends have any factual information or evidence-based opinion about Zcash, I would be glad to read it.

Sixth, I'm sorry if I bruised your feelings.

Seventh, I guess the point to absorb here is that you, your friends, and lots of other people just don't trust digital currencies presumably because of the near non-existence of most of them and because of the roller coaster ride of bitcoin. Thanks for driving that home! Yet despite years of obituaries for bitcoin it's still alive and well. If Zcash is able to deliver what it promises, the citizens of the digital world need to get behind it because what it promises is sorely needed. We'll see how it plays out. But please don't drive it to an early grave by dismissing it before it's even born. Keep and open mind. Or as someone recently said to me, "consider all the options", including the positive ones
 

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First, I'm not advertising anything.

 

Then find inner peace and wait. If it is good, we will know and we will use it, right? There's simply no need to push.

 

I was refuting your opinions which were offered without any supporting evidence

 

How can I proof that I don't trust something? You're funny. I deem them all untrustworthy because of how they work. I even deem credit cards and bank accounts untrustworthy to some degree, am I the idiot now or what?

 

I guess the point to absorb here is that you, your friends, and lots of other people just don't trust digital currencies presumably because of the near non-existence of most of them and because of the roller coaster ride of bitcoin

 

Bitcoin tells us what happens with a cryptocurrency if you allow it to be like Bitcoin: People start to profit from it. Sooner or later Litecoin will meet the same fate. As will your precious ZCash. And Dash. And Monero. If you can proof me wrong on that one, I'll bow before you and kiss your shoes.


Four simple things:
There's a guide to AirVPN. Before you ask questions, take 30 minutes of your time to go through it.

Amazon IPs are not dangerous here. It's the fallback DNS.
Running TOR exits is discouraged. They're subject to restrictions on the internet and harm all AirVPN users.

Furthermore, I propose that your paranoia is to be destroyed. If you overdo privacy, you'll be unique among the mass again.

 

XMPP: gigan3rd@xmpp.airvpn.org or join our lounge@conference.xmpp.airvpn.org

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Then find inner peace and wait. If it is good, we will know and we will use it, right? There's simply no need to push.

 

So you dispense spiritual advice as well as opinion, guru giganerd. Thanks but I have sufficient inner peace. I'm not pushing anything, just sharing some conversation that some people might benefit from, even you. Judging from the number of views, people are interested in the topic.

 

Of course people will profit from a quality digital currency. What's wrong with that? If something is desirable people buy it and sell it and make a profit. Marx and Lenin might be irritated, but I don't see a problem with it, do you? People who mine or buy Zcash early will make a profit if it is successful. But totally apart from that what Zcash promises in the way of a digital, anonymous, fungible, decentralized medium of exchange and store of value is sorely needed. You don't trust banks or credit cards, but no doubt you use them because you need them. And eventually, if you haven't already, you will need digital currency, among many other reasons, so that you won't have to rely so much on banks.

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Sure you push, and you prove it by continuously repeating how good ZCash is and that we really need to use it. Over and over again. Are you even reading what you write?

 

Sit down, drink a cup of tea and wait it out.. soon we'll know if it's good, and if it is, I'll be glad to see if people can trust it.

 

That'd be my last word. I hope you're already making tea! <3


Four simple things:
There's a guide to AirVPN. Before you ask questions, take 30 minutes of your time to go through it.

Amazon IPs are not dangerous here. It's the fallback DNS.
Running TOR exits is discouraged. They're subject to restrictions on the internet and harm all AirVPN users.

Furthermore, I propose that your paranoia is to be destroyed. If you overdo privacy, you'll be unique among the mass again.

 

XMPP: gigan3rd@xmpp.airvpn.org or join our lounge@conference.xmpp.airvpn.org

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