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scooby0786

ExpressVPN: Is it worth the money?

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Hi guys,

Sorry to regurgitate an old thread, but nothing was mentioned about ExpressVPN in here.
I have a few family members with Air, one of them is a programmer so probably doesn't bother him that this is more technical than other providers.
Currently been discussing VPN with my friends who are interested in taking out a VPN, since we're all stuck at home, and they kept going on about ExpressVPN.

They're more expensive than Air, but I have to admit their how-to help videos as opposed to we not having any is the only upside I could encounter with my counter-argument as to why I feel they should join Air instead. I stressed the fact that Air don't pay professional reviewers and advertisers to further their goal, but they do consider the data of their users to be private and 0 log-policy, if requested by authorities.

I do feel Air is a lot more technical than other providers and would have a lot more customers if we had a how-to video on the website like NordVPN and ExpressVPN, but I wouldn't personally trust any other provider with my own family surfing online, hence I bought a further 3 years from Air, so these questions aren't to convince me.
We do have a guide by LZ1 (thank you to him), but how-to videos go a long way with most users who find shopping for a VPN a daunting task. 

My main question is, how does Air compare to ExpressVPN? Can I convince them not to go with them with any info someone can provide me? I already convinced them not to go with NordVPN with this article:
 


But is there something untrustworthy or unsavoury about Express, too?
And in what aspects is Air better than them?

Any help would be kindly appreciated.

Kind regards

 

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Express is a lot more expensive and hosted in the US Virgin Islands, which aren't exactly outside of US government influence - zero logs policy or not.  What exactly are their needs?  Air has a bit of a learning curve but certainly manageable for power users, and I trust its zero log policy.  Plus, the community / staff here is generally quite helpful for troubleshooting issues.  However, if your friends / family feel comfortable with the video tutorials Express publishes, its clients are easy to setup, and they don't mind forking over 100 USD a year when they could find something suitable for 60 USD a year, then why dissuade them?  It's their money to waste.

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Express had no such big issues like Nord in the last time, however, they invest heavily in advertising, use analytics software on their website and in their apps, their apps are not open source, the customer support is outsourced, the management and owners are not public, and of course none of them is actually living in the British Virgin Islands.
Data protection laws in the EU are more strict, and there are other services who are more transparent (and cheaper).

That said, if having servers in more countries or stable Netflix via VPN is important to you, ExpressVPN can be used. It´s just that there are more trusthworthy alternatives.

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23 hours ago, monstrocity said:

Express is a lot more expensive and hosted in the US Virgin Islands, which aren't exactly outside of US government influence - zero logs policy or not.  What exactly are their needs?  Air has a bit of a learning curve but certainly manageable for power users, and I trust its zero log policy.  Plus, the community / staff here is generally quite helpful for troubleshooting issues.  However, if your friends / family feel comfortable with the video tutorials Express publishes, its clients are easy to setup, and they don't mind forking over 100 USD a year when they could find something suitable for 60 USD a year, then why dissuade them?  It's their money to waste.


Indeed, it is their money, but money alone isn't the issue. It's trust that one should be able to have for their VPN provider that's most important and for them to do the right thing by their customers. You said, they're not outside "US government influence," does that mean they've actually handed data over at anytime that you know of, since they claim it's a 0 log policy, or is it just the fact you wouldn't trust them because of that? I've been with Air, and their Staff are extremely helpful. I've logged several tickets since, so I agree with that, but just feel the company would do better by appealing to the dummies as well by having some tutorial videos and picture guides, etc. If I'm free enough over the coming months, I wouldn't mind creating a few myself. Air would need a specific page layout for it, like so: https://nordvpn.com/tutorials/

Before someone shoots me, I'm in no way endorsing Nord with that link, I never would. I just feel we could do with a decent Noob layout where customers can see the data for themselves and buy a product.The above link advises how people can use Synology and other media centres with the VPN, etc. That appeals to a lot of people and helps them choose the VPN.
All companies use words like 0 log policy and 256 AES key, etc, but you don't actually know anything about their true intentions about data mining and such until you look behind the curtain.

 

22 hours ago, HannaForest said:

Express had no such big issues like Nord in the last time, however, they invest heavily in advertising, use analytics software on their website and in their apps, their apps are not open source, the customer support is outsourced, the management and owners are not public, and of course none of them is actually living in the British Virgin Islands.
Data protection laws in the EU are more strict, and there are other services who are more transparent (and cheaper).

That said, if having servers in more countries or stable Netflix via VPN is important to you, ExpressVPN can be used. It´s just that there are more trusthworthy alternatives.



Investing in advertising isn't a bad thing, as long as the money hasn't come from shady companies that have an interest in that company.
Similar to the way US government investors invested in ProtonMail. Speaking of mail, I'd highly recommend TutaNota mail to anyone. 😉

Analytics software I'm guessing is used to obtain how many of their customers use certain features a certain way, as long as they don't collate any identifiable information on that customer, I would be happy enough for even Air to do that. I'm glad that they don't, incidentally.
But again, is that the fact that you don't trust them because of that, or have you heard something where that data has been used malignantly?
I don't like the fact their apps aren't open-source, as you mentioned. Could have hidden codes for data-mining.
Highly doubtful for a paid VPN provider, but I guess one never knows for sure.
 
Quote

That said, if having servers in more countries or stable Netflix via VPN is important to you, ExpressVPN can be used. It´s just that there are more trusthworthy alternatives.


Unfortunately, Air has no way of providing a VPN connection to WebOS systems for me, without an additional router, but that's fine. Netflix and Prime are paid and legit apps, I'm not too fussed if they know what I'm watching. They'd know through a VPN who I was anyway since you need to be logged in with them to watch anything through normal means.

You showed some concerns of distrust with ExpressVPN in your stated facts about them, which I value and if I wasn't with Air, based on what you said, I wouldn't personally choose them. I just don't understand why in the end you followed that up by saying they "can be used"?
Is the distrust because they outsource the customer service, owners aren't known to the public, etc, or have they actually done something to cause that distrust that you know of?
And in your personal opinion, would you mind mentioning a few of those more trustworthy alternatives to me? 2 maximum. And briefly why you chose Air over those that you may mention. Thank you. 

Thank you kindly for your responses and opinions, guys. I'm indebted to you.
Sorry for the late reply. I didn't get a notice of replies, as my original post was taken from a different thread and started as a new thread entirely by a kind moderator.

In light of what we discussed, I just find it disappointing that Air can't be found very easily by normal searches for a good VPN. And when they are found, 85% of the market that likes the easy ride ignore them as it doesn't seem like something that's easy for them to use, due to lack of visual guides. The other 15-20% like digging in deep and getting a lot of back ground info and find there wouldn't be anyone better than Air.

If it wasn't for a very privacy conscious tin-hat wearing buddy of mine, I would never have come across Air 3 years ago. That would have been a shame.

Thank you kindly for your opinions and thoughts on the subject thus far.
 

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1 hour ago, scooby0786 said:

In light of what we discussed, I just find it disappointing that Air can't be found very easily by normal searches for a good VPN. And when they are found, 85% of the market that likes the easy ride ignore them as it doesn't seem like something that's easy for them to use, due to lack of visual guides. The other 15-20% like digging in deep and getting a lot of back ground info and find there wouldn't be anyone better than Air.


I went through the same experience as you. For the past 10 years, I first used BTGuard then TorGuard>PIA>TunnelBear>PIA>ExpressVPN>NordVPN (like a week)>ExpressVPN then finally accepted AirVPN as my VPN God. I found AirVPN through r/VPN that someone recommend this to me. The reason why I went with AirVPN is:
  1. They are one of very few VPN service that offer static port forwarding which is perfect for torrenting.
  2. Their Network Lock is vastly superior than other VPN competitor options
  3. Their software, Eddie, is capable of changing the port automatically (and keep connecting to the same server) when it detect an issue with the port number or protocol. VPN competitor will move on to the next server in the list if their software having issue connecting regardless if the protocol/port is the problem. I don't know if the competitors change their software to try different port/protocol since I came to AirVPN in 2016.
I forgot why I am discussing this? Oh right, the easily searchable part. Yes, I believe it is something to do that reviewers are not paid to review AirVPN. My opinion is that if the reviewer are being paid to review the product, then they will have a bias on the product. Even the reviewers are ethical and professional to provide objective reviews but it still have bias to it. I agreed with you about that reviewers simply are ignoring the because of two things: they are not paid to review the product or they see AirVPN not marketable. However, I do found few article that gave AirVPN a positive reviews. Again, it is down to what websites are providing the reviews and their reputation on it. Often I prefer to get the reviews and the feedback from the crowdsourcing site and social media since they will give their experiences that something reviewers do overlook because they uses the product far longer than reviewers does in half hour. And reviewers usually don't follow up or update their reviews after a year or so. If you want a better idea of VPN products, I strongly recommend looking into Reddit subs, they often have subs that are specialized in the subject.

The visual guide aspect, I get it. I understand that. I first use Eddie, I was not sure what to do and just roll with the default setting. Then the next day, I decided to look in Eddie and the options they have. It only takes me 5 mins to understand them and how to use them effectively. Also Eddie do have documentation on the bottom-right corner on some options to get a better understanding of the features they provided.

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Damn. You been through them all. Lol.
At least you were smart enough to start 10 years ago. I only started back in 2017. And that was because a lot of people I knew started getting letters from their ISP about torrenting. 
I have Norton-360 and that has a VPN, too. I still prefer a stand-alone VPN. Besides, Norton doesn't allow p2p connections as it's not considered "safe". 😉

Anyway, I don't want to digress too much. Your point #1 about static ports, you mean for using in clients like BitTorrent, right? If I don't use that, it's still safe for me to use BT with Eddie default settings, right?
If it's just for speed and throttling issues, then my following post helped resolve that back in 2017: https://airvpn.org/forums/topic/24212-vpn-speed-testing-done-right/?tab=comments#comment-67233

Your points 2 and 3 are linked. And if there was a advertising video about that and showing the break and how Eddie reconnects, etc, it will show people why they should choose Air over other providers. People these days when making marketing choices rely very much on visual acuity. And are easily seduced by such campaigns. Marketing companies know this, and other tricks. And there wouldn't be anything wrong for Air to use such tactics to gain their own fame that way. All they'd be doing is telling the truth and being open about things which is what I have come to experience and expect from them.

I'm still going to try getting those friends on Air, as I believe they'd be able to handle minor technical inputs that might be required from their end.
The main reason I want advice about other VPN's that can be trusted as much as Air (or close enough) and are pleasing to the eye, is mostly for my sister.
I wouldn't want her on Air, as any issues arise and I would have to handle them constantly and she'd have me ripping my remaining hair follicles out before the year was out. Siblings for you, right? Can't live with 'em, can't kill 'em! 😅
So I would prefer something more simple for her, yet trustworthy. She may be a teacher by profession, but she's quite the simpleton.

I can appreciate we shouldn't be maybe advising other products on here, and I don't mind that and understand completely. People could PM me a suggestion, if need be.
For anyone reading this post after two weeks, no suggestions required at that point. Hopefully I'll have found something for her by then.

I, myself, shall remain with Air for as long as they exist. Or I exist. Not to sound morbid.
And I like your name, man. I think I'll use that for my new PSN name. 😆

Thank you all for contributing. Much obliged.

Scoob

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8 hours ago, scooby0786 said:

I'm still going to try getting those friends on Air, as I believe they'd be able to handle minor technical inputs that might be required from their end.

Don't take my word for it but if your friends have some IT-background AirVPN would be the the perfect option.
8 hours ago, scooby0786 said:

The main reason I want advice about other VPN's that can be trusted as much as Air (or close enough) and are pleasing to the eye, is mostly for my sister.
I wouldn't want her on Air, as any issues arise and I would have to handle them constantly and she'd have me ripping my remaining hair follicles out before the year was out. Siblings for you, right? Can't live with 'em, can't kill 'em! 😅
So I would prefer something more simple for her, yet trustworthy. She may be a teacher by profession, but she's quite the simpleton.

I can appreciate we shouldn't be maybe advising other products on here, and I don't mind that and understand completely. People could PM me a suggestion, if need be.
For anyone reading this post after two weeks, no suggestions required at that point. Hopefully I'll have found something for her by then.

As for your dear sister ExpressVPN would be the desired choice. Convenience way. Unless you want her to beat your brains out whenever she cannot connect. :)

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22 hours ago, scooby0786 said:

Investing in advertising isn't a bad thing, as long as the money hasn't come from shady companies that have an interest in that company.

Similar to the way US government investors invested in ProtonMail. Speaking of mail, I'd highly recommend TutaNota mail to anyone. 😉
Tutanote is nice, however, they still offer no crypto payments for their premium plan.
Could you also provide proof for US gov. investing in Protonmail? thanks

 

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23 hours ago, scooby0786 said:
Analytics software I'm guessing is used to obtain how many of their customers use certain features a certain way, as long as they don't collate any identifiable information on that customer, I would be happy enough for even Air to do that. I'm glad that they don't, incidentally.
But again, is that the fact that you don't trust them because of that, or have you heard something where that data has been used malignantly?
I don't like the fact their apps aren't open-source, as you mentioned. Could have hidden codes for data-mining.
Highly doubtful for a paid VPN provider, but I guess one never knows for sure.
It is questionable wheter a "privacy-focused company" should enable Google trackers in the first place.
I don´t actively distrust Expressvpn as there is no proof of malintent from their side but there are services I trust more. And open source code is one of many ways of building user trust.
 
23 hours ago, scooby0786 said:


You showed some concerns of distrust with ExpressVPN in your stated facts about them, which I value and if I wasn't with Air, based on what you said, I wouldn't personally choose them. I just don't understand why in the end you followed that up by saying they "can be used"?

Is the distrust because they outsource the customer service, owners aren't known to the public, etc, or have they actually done something to cause that distrust that you know of?
 
Well, there is no right VPN for everyone. If you don´t watch Netflix then you might not care if Airvpn supports it. If you need servers in France, Mexico or South Africa, then Airvpn is probably not the right choice for you. So it depends.
I´m not aware of any bad things Express has done but I consider "offshore" VPNs that are not transparent about who is behind them shady. The VP is known though but ivpn.net, for example, does a better job in being transparent. This is just my personal and biased opinion.
 
23 hours ago, scooby0786 said:
And in your personal opinion, would you mind mentioning a few of those more trustworthy alternatives to me? 2 maximum. And briefly why you chose Air over those that you may mention. Thank you.
ovpn.com and azirevpn.com. Both are small services, which won´t make them appealing to broader audience but they have a strong focus on privacy. There are many other good alternatives as the competition is huge.
Airvpn fulfills my needs and works reliably. The pricing is fair, the community forum is nice, and the staff actually has profound technical knowledge and they have a Linux GUI(!). Also, I consider their mission very important and am happy to support it :)

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19 hours ago, scooby0786 said:

I'm still going to try getting those friends on Air, as I believe they'd be able to handle minor technical inputs that might be required from their end.
The main reason I want advice about other VPN's that can be trusted as much as Air (or close enough) and are pleasing to the eye, is mostly for my sister.
I wouldn't want her on Air, as any issues arise and I would have to handle them constantly and she'd have me ripping my remaining hair follicles out before the year was out. Siblings for you, right? Can't live with 'em, can't kill 'em! 😅
So I would prefer something more simple for her, yet trustworthy. She may be a teacher by profession, but she's quite the simpleton.

I agree that Air might be a bit too technical for some people. While it´s perfectly fine for me, my grandpa would be overwhelmed if he took a look at the settings.
You can check out Mullvad or Ivpn, they are more simple and not so big as Express. A more diverse vpn market would be great.

 

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12 hours ago, Flx said:
Don't take my word for it but if your friends have some IT-background AirVPN would be the the perfect option. As for your dear sister ExpressVPN would be the desired choice. Convenience way. Unless you want her to beat your brains out whenever she cannot connect. :)

I don't care if my friends are tech experts or not, I'd only recommend Air to them. 😀
Family would be on my case constantly, so I have to be careful there. My nephew's a software developer/engineer and he came to Air via myself, but technical or not, he's never had any problems nor had any need to contact Air since his purchase.
I've seen your posts in the past and believe you to have sound technical knowledge, so I appreciate your feedback about Express and that it would be okay to purchase that for her. I'll touch up on what I did further below.
 
2 hours ago, HannaForest said:
Tutanote is nice, however, they still offer no crypto payments for their premium plan.
Could you also provide proof for US gov. investing in Protonmail? thanks

 

Indeed. They did say they will incorporate crypto-currency for payment options soon.
Don't get me wrong, I do still use Proton, but as their subject heading isn't encrypted, I prefer Tutanota for more private emails. Such as banking and online orders.
Sometimes subject headings can contain what you purchased from suppliers. If I choose to buy pink underwear, not that I would (ahem), I'd prefer not to be shown a dildo the next time I shop online. Pardon the pun, and I hope that example is allowed on Air. 😏 And not that I'm saying ProtonMail would sell by subject headings to anyone.

For the life of me, I can't find where I read it, maybe on Reddit? But I was only able to find the following article now: https://www.techspot.com/news/82776-protonmail-review-secure-email-really-secure.html
It states: "Ironically, less than a year later, however, ProtonMail accepted a $2 million “investment” from a US-based firm called Charles River Ventures (CRV). Today the company is funded through venture capital firms, government bodies, various investors,"
It was awhile ago that I read it. I didn't look into it with great detail, maybe I should have been clear about that before. Sorry. 🤷‍♀️
I heard good things about CTemplar. They're based in Iceland and Icelandic private laws are really good, but I don't know much about them.

@ All of you:

To save myself from any kind of headache and making a rash decision now that I may regret, I decided to give my sister access to my Norton360 account. Without the password manager, obviously. Lol.
It has a built in VPN for general browsing which will more than meet her current needs. And it will take care of her internet security at the same time.
It doesn't have p2p support, unfortunately, but as stated, she's a simpleton and has no interest in those things.
Since there is no cost involved for her with this option, I feel I may still generate criticism at some point. What else are families for?

Thanks for your feedback and advice, peeps, I will certainly review this thread for all your input if I decide to purchase my sis another service in the future.
Hope you guys don't think I wasted your time after all that, but I certainly learned a great deal and have just chosen to take a simpler way out for myself. 😁

This was my first time in 3 years with Air actually posting something for myself or family in the forum, and you've all been great.

Peace
 

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It's already said: the choice of VPN provider depends a lot on your personal needs and wishes. Are you a Showden or a dude who just wants to watch Netflix?

For me, comparing ExpressVPN to AirVPN, the main things I like of ExpressVPN compare to AirVPN:
- Third party auditing. It's always good to have an independant entity compare your promises with reality.
- RAM driven servers. Simply said, this architecture means that logs CANNOT be stored.
- Being based in British Virgin Islands. Although having historical and present ties to UK, they are autonomous since 1967. They are not part of the Five Eyes.

What I like about AirVPN:
- Eddie is open source. Anybody can compare promises with reality.
- The superior kill switch, which works essentially differently than you average kill switch. As far as I know, AirVPN is the only VPN povider with such a network locking system.
- Some security features are impressive and well-overthought. For example, the Diffie-Hellman key exchange with client-side lowerable re-keying interval is just unhackable. 
- Founded and run by activists.

And I think the last one is maybe the most important. Many serious VPN providers have slightly different but decent enough technique, performance and options. All of them say "zero logs!" (while some of them have been caught logging AND handing over data). It all comes down to trust. Who would you trust more? A privacy activist with open source software or a businessman with closed source software? 

That being said, I wouldn't mind if AirVPN would have a third party do some auditing and go for fully RAM driven servers too. Never mind being based in 14-Eyes-Italy - it's remarkable that AirVPN doesn't have any servers (anymore) in Italy.

Altogether I would choose for AirVPN, even if ExpressVPN was half price. Actually I did, and having approx. 1500 days left, with no regrets so far. It's being said that AirVPN is 'too technical' for some, but is that so? It's very possible to just install Eddie and use it out-of-the-box without studying settings and options for hours. It might be suitable for your sister as well. Why not try a one month's subscription?
Please note the disclaimer: "This is my personal opinion. My advice should never be followed blindly."

As for ProtonMail vs. Tutanota, I simply don't trust ProtonMail (anymore). They said it themselves at the start: accepting outside financing would mean loosing credibility. So it's simple. Since they accepted outside financing (March 2015, see https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-has-raised-2m-usd-to-protect-online-privacy/ ), they lost credibility. Mind you, this outside financing is done by Fongit (which is financed by the Geneva district of Switzerland) and by CRV, with eyebrow-frowning ties to US intelligence. CTemplar has the advantage of being based in Iceland, which is a pro compared to Switzerland (with an MLAT treaty with USA) or Germany (a 14 Eyes country). But also here it comes down to trust and where that trust is based upon.
 

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On 4/30/2020 at 12:42 PM, HannaForest said:
Tutanote is nice, however, they still offer no crypto payments for their premium plan.
Could you also provide proof for US gov. investing in Protonmail? thanks

 

Want to avoid going off-topic, but I found the following topics that I was referring to above.
Can't comment if they are true or not.

Article 1: crowdfunding-equity-sale
Article 2: protonmail-devs-do-not-use-protonmail
Article 3: protonmails-creation-with-cia-nsa

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Posted ... (edited)
On 4/29/2020 at 3:19 PM, scooby0786 said:

Sorry for the late reply. I didn't get a notice of replies, as my original post was taken from a different thread and started as a new thread entirely by a kind moderator.


;)
I was convinced you would be notified after the split. I did that countless times in the past and the "promoted OP" always wrote back after someone else or me replied to the new thread, so I assumed you were notified, too.

So about Express vs. Air, as noted already, their software is closed-source (which for me is a yellow flag).
Their location is also a yellow flag: VPN providers are somewhat drawn to "exotic" locations for their HQ, from a capitalistic point of view no doubt because of the taxation rates and free marketing ("ah, Virgin Islands, no 14-eyes country, no data retention laws, perfect!"). I've come to think that location of the HQ doesn't matter at all. You can found a company as a Chinese millionaire or an undercover agent in a location that seems good for privacy's sake, that doesn't mean you don't talk to the Chinese government or, more generally, your superiors and tell them who's naughty. It's almost as if being based on 14-eyes gives more credibility.
Also, countless VPN apps on the Play Store have ties to Chinese-run companies, it is a fact they are manipulating algorithms to aggressively get in front of the "established" VPN providers. Of course they're packed with trackers, see below.

Next thing: Some of you might agree that if you as a VPN provider pay a website to write a nice review, then maybe your service is not among the best – if it were recognized as such, why pay for good words? When people post articles from sites like VPNPro, BestVPN, etc. here on AirVPN, ads from a particular set of VPNs always come up as a "no please don't leave the site, we'll reward you with a discount" JavaScript popup: NordVPN and ExpressVPN are among the most nagging and visible.
Example: We have a pinned topic in this forum to a "real competitive analysis effort" from Comparitech. It was current once and was said to reflect what AirVPN officials think are the strong points of their service. Browse this site now, and a freaking ExpressVPN popup comes up. They and NordVPN even have more points than AirVPN now, despite… well, I invite you to search for "NordVPN" in this forum alone (example – how can that thing have more points?).

Then there's the thing about trackers, something no VPN will protect you against, so it's best to keep the amount close to or, best, exactly on 0. There are threads about the tracker count on VPN providers' websites (AirVPN 0, Express 10), and there are threads about trackers in VPN providers' apps. The latter refers to Nord, but please check yourself with FLOSS apps like ClassyShark3xodus or on its web database (AirVPN 0, Express 2).

As for ProtonMail vs. Tutanota: You should probably doubt everything ProtonX. ProtonVPN for example belongs to the same company that runs… NordVPN.

@all: People, always check your sources if referring to external websites:
13 hours ago, scooby0786 said:

I didn't pay much attention to these, but something drove me to dig a bit. And it literally took me three clicks to realize something:
https://privacy-watchdog.io/the-truth-about-posteo/
I've been using Posteo for quite some time now (almost a decade) and, if I do say so myself, the article on Posteo is nothing but a celebration of FUD spreading, par excellence if you will. The author throws so many assumptions and even false statements into the room without proof, it's painful to read. Now if that extends to his other articles, then it's a very bad source to refer to. The only real reference is to a Reddit thread – about users who don't like the web interface. Please, this is not what I'd call "research".

And, About page:
Quote
I’ve learned that most security researchers are pussies. They don’t have the testicles to write the truth about a company.

Looks like an accusation/defamation of sorts. I hear it's a method of creating the concept of an enemy. Edited ... by giganerd
Outdated and rebutted ProtonVPN sources

» I am not an AirVPN team member. All opinions are my own and are not to be considered official. Only the AirVPN Staff account should be viewed as such.

» The forums is a place where you can ask questions to the community. You are not entitled to guaranteed answer times. Answer quality may vary, too. If you need professional support, please create tickets.

» If you're new, take some time to read LZ1's New User Guide to AirVPN. On questions, use the search function first. On errors, search for the error message instead.

» If you choose to create a new thread, keep in mind that we don't know your setup. Give info about it. Never forget the OpenVPN logs or, for Eddie, the support file (Logs > lifebelt icon).

» The community kindly asks you to not set up Tor exit relays when connected to AirVPN. Their IP addresses are subject to restrictions and these are relayed to all users of the affected servers.

 

» Furthermore, I propose that your paranoia is to be destroyed. If you overdo privacy, chances are you will be unique amond the mass again.

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3 hours ago, giganerd said:
 
@all: People, always check your sources if referring to external websites:
I didn't pay much attention to these, but something drove me to dig a bit. And it literally took me three clicks to realize something:
https://privacy-watchdog.io/the-truth-about-posteo/
I've been using Posteo for quite some time now (almost a decade) and, if I do say so myself, the article on Posteo is nothing but a celebration of FUD spreading, par excellence if you will. The author throws so many assumptions and even false statements into the room without proof, it's painful to read. Now if that extends to his other articles, then it's a very bad source to refer to. The only real reference is to a Reddit thread – about users who don't like the web interface. Please, this is not what I'd call "research".

And, About page:
Looks like an accusation/defamation of sorts. I hear it's a method of creating the concept of an enemy.
Agree. I´ve just read some posts. The author mixes up half-truths with conspiracies. This site seems like a joke to me.
 
3 hours ago, giganerd said:


As for ProtonMail vs. Tutanota: You should probably doubt everything ProtonX. ProtonVPN for example belongs to the same company that runs… NordVPN.
This is an older topic of course but I have found no proof for your claim from the link you posted (many things are now deleted though). I read through older news posts of this as well.
You can verify the signing keys of the Proton apps and see that they are signed by them. Also, Protonmail is transparent about their management, ownership, and the investments they received. All of it can be found on their website.
Here again, it is up to the users, with regard to their threat models, to decide whether they should trust and use Proton.

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On 4/30/2020 at 9:37 AM, scooby0786 said:

To save myself from any kind of headache and making a rash decision now that I may regret, I decided to give my sister access to my Norton360 account. Without the password manager, obviously. Lol.
It has a built in VPN for general browsing which will more than meet her current needs. And it will take care of her internet security at the same time.

From the strict point of "Software Firewalls" Norton360 along with McAfee and any other firewall that has a so-called "in-build VPN" etc. Don't bother using those products. AirVPN Staff did their homework on this and they know the "difference". Why do you think they picked Comodo instead of the all the other "flavored choices" firewalls?
When you have some free-time do some digging around. Redit etc. so on. of what happens "behind-the-scene".
I strongly suggest that you do for your own and your family sake.

 

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6 hours ago, HannaForest said:

This is an older topic of course but I have found no proof for your claim from the link you posted (many things are now deleted though). I read through older news posts of this as well.
You can verify the signing keys of the Proton apps and see that they are signed by them. Also, Protonmail is transparent about their management, ownership, and the investments they received. All of it can be found on their website.


I edited the post, thanks for the heads-up.

» I am not an AirVPN team member. All opinions are my own and are not to be considered official. Only the AirVPN Staff account should be viewed as such.

» The forums is a place where you can ask questions to the community. You are not entitled to guaranteed answer times. Answer quality may vary, too. If you need professional support, please create tickets.

» If you're new, take some time to read LZ1's New User Guide to AirVPN. On questions, use the search function first. On errors, search for the error message instead.

» If you choose to create a new thread, keep in mind that we don't know your setup. Give info about it. Never forget the OpenVPN logs or, for Eddie, the support file (Logs > lifebelt icon).

» The community kindly asks you to not set up Tor exit relays when connected to AirVPN. Their IP addresses are subject to restrictions and these are relayed to all users of the affected servers.

 

» Furthermore, I propose that your paranoia is to be destroyed. If you overdo privacy, chances are you will be unique amond the mass again.

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On 5/1/2020 at 11:31 AM, agent008 said:

It's already said: the choice of VPN provider depends a lot on your personal needs and wishes. Are you a Showden or a dude who just wants to watch Netflix?

For me, comparing ExpressVPN to AirVPN, the main things I like of ExpressVPN compare to AirVPN:
- Third party auditing. It's always good to have an independant entity compare your promises with reality.
- RAM driven servers. Simply said, this architecture means that logs CANNOT be stored.
- Being based in British Virgin Islands. Although having historical and present ties to UK, they are autonomous since 1967. They are not part of the Five Eyes.

What I like about AirVPN:
- Eddie is open source. Anybody can compare promises with reality.
- The superior kill switch, which works essentially differently than you average kill switch. As far as I know, AirVPN is the only VPN povider with such a network locking system.
- Some security features are impressive and well-overthought. For example, the Diffie-Hellman key exchange with client-side lowerable re-keying interval is just unhackable. 
- Founded and run by activists.


Thank you for that. You also laid it out they way I can process it. The which, the why and what made you choose Air over the others. The Kill-Switch being superior seems to come up a lot lately, and that’s really good to know. As I’ve personally never been with anyone else except Air, I like hearing good things about them as it reaffirms my belief that I have made a good choice all these years. Thank you for taking the time for such a detailed analysis. I do agree that Air has ran out of the box for me, but Eddie can be temperamental sometimes during updates or when switching off Windows without deactivating Eddie first. Rarely, but can happen. It just wouldn’t be appropriate for my sis with those kinds of things taken into consideration. But I’ll always be a member, unless Air ever change the way they operate, but I can’t imagine that ever being the case.
 

18 hours ago, giganerd said:

;)
I was convinced you would be notified after the split. I did that countless times in the past and the "promoted OP" always wrote back after someone else or me replied to the new thread, so I assumed you were notified, too.

So about Express vs. Air, as noted already, their software is closed-source (which for me is a yellow flag).
Their location is also a yellow flag: VPN providers are somewhat drawn to "exotic" locations for their HQ, from a capitalistic point of view no doubt because of the taxation rates and free marketing ("ah, Virgin Islands, no 14-eyes country, no data retention laws, perfect!"). I've come to think that location of the HQ doesn't matter at all. You can found a company as a Chinese millionaire or an undercover agent in a location that seems good for privacy's sake, that doesn't mean you don't talk to the Chinese government or, more generally, your superiors and tell them who's naughty. It's almost as if being based on 14-eyes gives more credibility.
Also, countless VPN apps on the Play Store have ties to Chinese-run companies, it is a fact they are manipulating algorithms to aggressively get in front of the "established" VPN providers. Of course they're packed with trackers, see below.

Next thing: Some of you might agree that if you as a VPN provider pay a website to write a nice review, then maybe your service is not among the best – if it were recognized as such, why pay for good words? When people post articles from sites like VPNPro, BestVPN, etc. here on AirVPN, ads from a particular set of VPNs always come up as a "no please don't leave the site, we'll reward you with a discount" JavaScript popup: NordVPN and ExpressVPN are among the most nagging and visible.
Example: We have a pinned topic in this forum to a "real competitive analysis effort" from Comparitech. It was current once and was said to reflect what AirVPN officials think are the strong points of their service. Browse this site now, and a freaking ExpressVPN popup comes up. They and NordVPN even have more points than AirVPN now, despite… well, I invite you to search for "NordVPN" in this forum alone (example – how can that thing have more points?).

Then there's the thing about trackers, something no VPN will protect you against, so it's best to keep the amount close to or, best, exactly on 0. There are threads about the tracker count on VPN providers' websites (AirVPN 0, Express 10), and there are threads about trackers in VPN providers' apps. The latter refers to Nord, but please check yourself with FLOSS apps like ClassyShark3xodus or on its web database (AirVPN 0, Express 2).

As for ProtonMail vs. Tutanota: You should probably doubt everything ProtonX. ProtonVPN for example belongs to the same company that runs… NordVPN.

 

Have no idea why I didn’t get the notification, then, It did show on my profile on that bell icon, but I got no email for it. Similar for that topic “no internet.” I did have notification switched on. Incidentally, I’ve PM’d you about that topic.

I agree and understand your “yellow flag” alert regarding ExpressVPN, but initially I just wanted a different provider for my sis as I don’t think Air would be for her. You’ve provided a lot of info for me to digest, which will probably take me at least a  week to look into it all.

I do like Air don’t pay reviewers money to write a love letter about them, and I wouldn’t trust paid reviewers, either. It’s a shame many users actually base their choices on what VPN to get on those reviews they come across. I think it couldn’t hurt Air’s chances of increasing their share-hold in the market by making the product more easily digestible for people that come across it. I discussed that before, things like colourful pictures and videos on how-to’s, etc. These things go a long way. They don’t have paid reviews, but that options doesn’t go against their ideologies and makes most people comfortable seeing things like that, rather than endless topics of code. I get why it’s like that, the coding topics, but that puts a lot of people off choosing Air. Most people don’t look as deep into VPN’s as what we’ve discussed in this thread. If they did, Air would be a perfect choice for them.

Your link: tracker count on VPN providers' websites sends me to a page that says: “Sorry, forbidden.” I’m guessing it’s a page for mods or special members only? I did appreciate the 3xodus link that you provided and checked out a few providers and apps that I use on there. A nifty site, indeed.

What would have been your recommendation for a VPN that you would trust other than Air for a simpleton? You can’t just say Air is the only trustable VPN on the market and that’s that. Yes, it’s the only one I trust with my things and always will, but there must be others that are worthy enough?

In regards to those Proton links I provided, I did say a few times that I didn’t look into them that much and also stated: “Can't comment if they are true or not.” I guess that was my way of a disclaimer of some sorts that I don’t really know much about that, so can’t really say that it should/shouldn’t be chosen. It was for people to look into themselves and conduct their own investigations. And the main reason I provided it was so HannaForest could get an idea of why I said what I said.
You did disagree with that guy, but seem to still agree with him that Proton can’t be trusted. I also had an email yesterday from ProtonMail stating their apps are now open-source. I can’t forward that email here, but I found the following link:  All ProtonMail apps are now open source

That's a good thing, right?
And would you consider them now as safer than what they were and in good standing to use that service?

 

14 hours ago, HannaForest said:
Agree. I´ve just read some posts. The author mixes up half-truths with conspiracies. This site seems like a joke to me.
  This is an older topic of course but I have found no proof for your claim from the link you posted (many things are now deleted though). I read through older news posts of this as well.
You can verify the signing keys of the Proton apps and see that they are signed by them. Also, Protonmail is transparent about their management, ownership, and the investments they received. All of it can be found on their website.
Here again, it is up to the users, with regard to their threat models, to decide whether they should trust and use Proton.


Yes, I guess it’s up to users to decide what they perceive as a threat. I like using ProtonMail (PM) and Tuta, I’m glad to see no one’s said anything bad about Tuta thus far. That’s not an invitation for somebody to start now. But I like having 2 email clients, as I don’t like keeping all my eggs in one basket. Giganerd's statements do cause me some concern about them.
Is it fair to say you use Proton and trust them? And if you, giga or anyone else can recommend another email provider, too, I’d be grateful. Proton is better that Tuta in regards to their features, etc, but I do trust Tuta more, though. And they're improving all the time.

You may be happy to hear that PM is now open-source, according to their website: All ProtonMail apps are now open source
More reason to trust them, I guess?

 

12 hours ago, Flx said:
From the strict point of "Software Firewalls" Norton360 along with McAfee and any other firewall that has a so-called "in-build VPN" etc. Don't bother using those products. AirVPN Staff did their homework on this and they know the "difference". Why do you think they picked Comodo instead of the all the other "flavored choices" firewalls?
When you have some free-time do some digging around. Redit etc. so on. of what happens "behind-the-scene".
I strongly suggest that you do for your own and your family sake.

 


Thank you for your concern. I wouldn’t use a built in VPN for myself; hence I have Air as my main provider. But my sis goes online a couple of hours a week at the most. A little online shopping, and that’s about it. Unlike me, she doesn’t live online, so I would have thought NortonVPN would be good enough for her needs until I find something more suitable for her. For all I know at this point, and the way this thread is going, I may even get her to get Air in the end. Since she doesn’t do much online and couldn't really benefit from everything Air represents and offers, you still feel Norton wouldn’t be good enough for her needs? When I have more time, I’ll certainly take your advice and look into it more to what you said about built in VPN's.
Thank you.


 

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2 hours ago, scooby0786 said:

Your link: tracker count on VPN providers' websites sends me to a page that says: “Sorry, forbidden.” I’m guessing it’s a page for mods or special members only? I did appreciate the 3xodus link that you provided and checked out a few providers and apps that I use on there. A nifty site, indeed.


Huh. Interesting. Now I get the same error message.
Anyway, it was a discussion on VPN company ownership, started by an article on VPNPro.
 
2 hours ago, scooby0786 said:

What would have been your recommendation for a VPN that you would trust other than Air for a simpleton? You can’t just say Air is the only trustable VPN on the market and that’s that. Yes, it’s the only one I trust with my things and always will, but there must be others that are worthy enough?


I've looked into IVPN three years ago and wasn't fully convinced of them. There were no real resources to browse through back then, only their website. But maybe I was already biased with the possibility of participating in the forums here at AirVPN, something I only saw on PrivateInternetAccess back then. So I wanted to have the same platform if I really was to switch.
Speaking of which, PIA was sold to Kape, the owners of CyberGhost, not long ago (this is where I first read it). They were quite popular but I think the thrill faded. :D By the way, when I looked for a VPN provider in 2013 following Snowden's actions, PIA made me a discount in live chat, I think it was 50%. I thought, I haven't seen it all yet, so I kept looking.. and wound up here. :)
When I'm not looking at advertisements from Express or Nord, Mullvad seems alright. They too don't really show up on phony websites, but people on Reddit always mention it, be it on /r/VPN or if occasional VPN provider questions are asked on subs like /r/de_EDV (German-language general IT sub).
I didn't look too closely into them, though.
 
3 hours ago, scooby0786 said:

You did disagree with that guy, but seem to still agree with him that Proton can’t be trusted. I also had an email yesterday from ProtonMail stating their apps are now open-source. I can’t forward that email here, but I found the following link:  All ProtonMail apps are now open source

That's a good thing, right?
And would you consider them now as safer than what they were and in good standing to use that service?


Truth is, I'm indifferent. ProtonMail offers products and features for a specific target audience, the same Lavabit targeted. Unfortunately for me, and what spoiled the fun, I switched to Lavabit as my main mail provider shortly after Snowden 2013, since I was part of the target audience, told everyone my Lavabit address (even the "more important" people), and then, one month later, Lavabit was gone and I wasn't reachable anymore, all because Snowden used it (which is not an accusation). It was a bad experience. Luckily I found Autistici/Inventati, Riseup and Posteo after it. A/I asked me some funny questions and Riseup is donation-driven and could disappear any day (and they were ready to disappear in 2019!). With Posteo the thinking was: Based in Germany? Focus on data economy? Independence from outside sponsoring? Yearly transparency reports? Encrypted inbox with own PGP key? Encrypted mailbox? Encrypted CardDAV/CalDAV? All that for 1€/month? You son of a b, I'm in".
 
3 hours ago, scooby0786 said:

I’m glad to see no one’s said anything bad about Tuta thus far.

And if you, giga or anyone else can recommend another email provider, too, I’d be grateful. Proton is better that Tuta in regards to their features, etc, but I do trust Tuta more, though. And they're improving all the time.


I saw that Tutanota released an open source Android app on F-Droid, maybe even as a reproducible build. That's quite a green flag for me. Apart from that, I'm not sure. Same target audience as ProtonMail, I suppose.

Posteo was the first in Germany to publish transparency reports on legal inquiries, and Mailbox followed a very short time later. At one point Posteo said they were the first in the world, but I can't verify that. But I am convinced of their.. erm, righteousness? Quest? :D

» I am not an AirVPN team member. All opinions are my own and are not to be considered official. Only the AirVPN Staff account should be viewed as such.

» The forums is a place where you can ask questions to the community. You are not entitled to guaranteed answer times. Answer quality may vary, too. If you need professional support, please create tickets.

» If you're new, take some time to read LZ1's New User Guide to AirVPN. On questions, use the search function first. On errors, search for the error message instead.

» If you choose to create a new thread, keep in mind that we don't know your setup. Give info about it. Never forget the OpenVPN logs or, for Eddie, the support file (Logs > lifebelt icon).

» The community kindly asks you to not set up Tor exit relays when connected to AirVPN. Their IP addresses are subject to restrictions and these are relayed to all users of the affected servers.

 

» Furthermore, I propose that your paranoia is to be destroyed. If you overdo privacy, chances are you will be unique amond the mass again.

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Quote

That's quite a green flag for me. Apart from that, I'm not sure. Posteo was the first in Germany to publish transparency reports on legal inquiries, and Mailbox followed a very short time later. At one point Posteo said they were the first in the world, but I can't verify that. But I am convinced of their.. erm, righteousness? Quest?


You might actually like Tuta, too. Their based in Germany. Also cost €1 a month for the cheapest plan. If one keeps their inbox clean, even the free plan would be good enough for most. I always feel 2 email clients are essential, rather than relying on just the one. Not researched extensively into VPN's as I'm happy to stay with Air forever, but I did actually look into email clients a lot, would highly recommend Tuta to anyone without a doubt. Just wish their features were similar to ProtonMail. You didn't say if you would consider them more trustworthy now that they're open-source apps? :ot::good:
 
Quote


I thought, I haven't seen it all yet, so I kept looking.. and wound up here. :)
When I'm not looking at advertisements from Express or Nord, Mullvad seems alright.


Yeah, I read your life-story somewhere in the forums a few days ago...:up:
A lot of the users above voiced their opinions on Express and somebody else mentioned Mullvard above, too. Going by your history novel that I read as to how you got here, I can trust your opinion. You seemed to cover a lot of background research into it. I'm gonna be extremely busy for the next few weeks, but will certainly refer back to this topic when I have more time to do some checks on what everyone said. For now I believe my sis will be fine with Norton. Minus the warning by Flx.
Everything is duly noted.

For those that may come after and can't be bothered reading essays, in a nutshell we came to 2 conclusions:

VPN alternatives:  Maybe ExpressVPN would be okay according to some, based on your trust levels. Mullvard would be better recommended by an Air moderator. If you don't mind a little leg work (on a very rare basis), always choose AirVPN. It's not as difficult as the impression in this topic might give you. And the support staff are always there, very knowledgable and truthful.

Email providers:  ProtonMail might now be okay for most since they just released open-source software apps across the platform. But do look into it yourselves.
I personally would prefer Tutanota as none of the devs here had anything negative to say about it. Just so you know, I personally do use both.

A big thank you to everyone that contributed, and to those that may yet follow with contributions.

Kind regards

 

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On 5/2/2020 at 1:41 PM, scooby0786 said:
Yes, I guess it’s up to users to decide what they perceive as a threat. I like using ProtonMail (PM) and Tuta, I’m glad to see no one’s said anything bad about Tuta thus far. That’s not an invitation for somebody to start now. But I like having 2 email clients, as I don’t like keeping all my eggs in one basket. Giganerd's statements do cause me some concern about them.

Is it fair to say you use Proton and trust them? And if you, giga or anyone else can recommend another email provider, too, I’d be grateful. Proton is better that Tuta in regards to their features, etc, but I do trust Tuta more, though. And they're improving all the time.

You may be happy to hear that PM is now open-source, according to their website: All ProtonMail apps are now open source
More reason to trust them, I guess?

You could say that I trust PM enough to use them, keeping in mind the limitations of PGP and email encryption in general (unencrypted subject and metadata). While there might be some points of concern for some people, as with almost any service, I don´t see reasons to distrust PM for the vast majority of users. They are strong privacy advocates, were the first to combine privacy and convenience in a well-designed app and make it appealing to a broad audience. They allow anonymous accounts and bitcoin payments.
But don´t consider me some sort of Proton advocate, refer to my threat model comment. There are other alternatives, and I hope that the competition will increase, giving users even more choices.

You can check out CTemplar as well. They are relatively new in the game but seem trustworthy, and are somewhat aimed towards the audience that has concerns with Protonmail and Tutanota (Tutanota received EU funding, for example).
Posteo, Mailbox.org, Startmail and Countermail are also worth mentioning. Each comes with their own pros and cons.

coming back to a vpn for your sister once again: IVPN and Mullvad are both nice. When you have the time you can read through their websites, blogs, maybe ask them some questions and then decide for yourself. They are not a must of course :)
 

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6 hours ago, giganerd said:
I saw that Tutanota released an open source Android app on F-Droid, maybe even as a reproducible build. That's quite a green flag for me. Apart from that, I'm not sure. Same target audience as ProtonMail, I suppose.
I may be not aware of all the lavabit details but wasn´t that something that was possible due to US laws? I doubt that any EU authority can force a provider to hand over ALL user data/keys if the case concerns only small number of people. Not to mention that this would be illegal for both.

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18 minutes ago, HannaForest said:

Startmail


Startpage was sold to System1, along with Startmail. It's at least questionable. They also acquired Waterfox not long ago. It is not worth mentioning anymore.
 
12 minutes ago, HannaForest said:

I may be not aware of all the lavabit details but wasn´t that something that was possible due to US laws? I doubt that any EU authority can force a provider to hand over ALL user data/keys if the case concerns only small number of people. Not to mention that this would be illegal for both.


Lavabit was a mail provider with hardened security and mailbox encryption by default. The way I heard it, Snowden used it to communicate with the key players analyzing and publishing his files.
Yes, Lavabit was based in the US. Agencies there got wind of Snowden's connection to Lavabit and forced the owner to either hand over the decryption keys or pay $1500 or so for every day he didn't. He pulled the plug on Lavabit to protect the customers' data. After nine days or so he obliged by printing it (or them) in a very small font size on many sheets of paper, something like that.

I think the only power really able to do that in extreme cases is Europol or Interpol, after a long way through the jungle of law.

Mind the original question, which was about ExpressVPN and, by extension, other providers as well.

» I am not an AirVPN team member. All opinions are my own and are not to be considered official. Only the AirVPN Staff account should be viewed as such.

» The forums is a place where you can ask questions to the community. You are not entitled to guaranteed answer times. Answer quality may vary, too. If you need professional support, please create tickets.

» If you're new, take some time to read LZ1's New User Guide to AirVPN. On questions, use the search function first. On errors, search for the error message instead.

» If you choose to create a new thread, keep in mind that we don't know your setup. Give info about it. Never forget the OpenVPN logs or, for Eddie, the support file (Logs > lifebelt icon).

» The community kindly asks you to not set up Tor exit relays when connected to AirVPN. Their IP addresses are subject to restrictions and these are relayed to all users of the affected servers.

 

» Furthermore, I propose that your paranoia is to be destroyed. If you overdo privacy, chances are you will be unique amond the mass again.

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14 hours ago, giganerd said:

Startpage was sold to System1, along with Startmail. It's at least questionable. They also acquired Waterfox not long ago. It is not worth mentioning anymore.
 
Totally forgot that, thank you! I edited my post.

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Posted ... (edited)

Trying to find an answer to the question of the topic...

(about privacy-watchdog.io)

On 5/2/2020 at 1:32 AM, HannaForest said:

Agree. I´ve just read some posts. The author mixes up half-truths with conspiracies. This site seems like a joke to me.


The author sounds more like an angry conspiracy theorist than a research journalist with a scientific approach. BUT, allow me to be the advocate of the devil here, that doesn't mean that all is automatically nonsense. It only means that you would have to do the verification yourself. 
 
On 5/2/2020 at 1:32 AM, HannaForest said:

Protonmail is transparent about their management, ownership, and the investments they received. All of it can be found on their website.


Being open about it is a plus in their book, but it doesn't change the fact. In my eyes, connections with the Swiss government and a 'funny' American company is at least a yellow flag.
 
On 5/1/2020 at 9:41 PM, giganerd said:

As for ProtonMail vs. Tutanota: You should probably doubt everything ProtonX. ProtonVPN for example belongs to the same company that runs… NordVPN.

On 5/2/2020 at 1:32 AM, HannaForest said:

This is an older topic of course but I have found no proof for your claim from the link you posted


I am confused now. Is the proof missing, or is the statement not valid?
 
On 5/3/2020 at 1:53 AM, HannaForest said:

Tutanota received EU funding


Maybe I am confused again, or maybe you?
It was Proton being funded by the Swiss government, right? Is Tutanota funded by EU?

AirVPN vs. ExpressVPN vs. any other VPN:
Once again, it all comes down to trust. This whole VPN business is more or less saturated with lies or at least unclarities and obfuscations. The way I chose my VPN provider years ago, was digging around and do some research and some trying out. Whenever I found some lie or even something suspicious, varying from screaming "no logs!" and then being caught logging (how unforgiveable can something be...) to trackers on the website or obscure ownership or paid reviews, the VPN provider was off my list. This is how I ended up with AirVPN. I have not found any lies or anything suspicious.

ProtonMail vs. Tutanota vs. CTemplar
Same same, although much less clear. I don't trust ProtonMail for a couple of reasons. CTemplar apparently uses two trackers (according to exodus, thanks for that link!). Crash tracking, hm, okay. But Firebase Analytics, by Google, of all things? That's a definite no-go. Tutanota is the only one that also encrypts metadata. And yes, the 1. opensource app and 2. it being on F-droid is pretty nice. So that's how I chose Tutanota, despite the fact that they are in Germany, which is the host of the European NSA headquarters :)










  Edited ... by agent008
Typos and a little addition about Tutanota

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